Army, Marine Corps clashing over cammies...

"Multicam is better then the ACU pattern, no question (or Marpat IMO) -- nor was their ever a question on that score. Howsomeever, plain old OG 107 still does just as well in more conditions at half the price. ;)"

Quite so. There was a study done by (I think) Natik in the late 1960s (about the time the Woodland BDU was coming into service) that came to the same conclusion. The old OD/OG uniform also did good service as a work uniform, something that the newer ones just haven't been able to do. And with the lower cost, it was much easier for Joe/Jane to have an "inspection uniform" all starched and ready to go along with a number of work uniforms (it was even authorized to cut the shirt down into a short sleeve version). Not so easy to do these days. And honestly, does the clerk, personnel officer, or flightline mechanic really NEED a camo uniform?

The camouflage issue seems to counter the very thing that we as military professionals are suppose to embody...selfless service. Why would any service (Navy, Air Force, Army, Marines, and Coast Guard) want to hold back from its fellow Armed Force Branches anything that could allow them to be more effective in combat? We are all trying to execute the same mission in service to the same people. Are we all not brothers and sisters in arms? I did joint operations with the 1st MARDIV in Ramadi during 2003 operations when assigned to 1st BDE 1st ID and if any Marine ever needed help we were there and vice versa. When it comes to camouflage, or any other equipment needed to make us a better fighting force across the branches, we need to be working together. Monopolizing innovation and not sharing amongst ourselves as erodes the values we stand for as a combined arms force of military professionals.

Call me cynical, but I've always wondered how much of the decision to go with the ACUs was based on the desire for a cool recruiting campaign, and multicam just doesn't look all that futuristic. I'm not saying futuristic makes good camo, but it might make good recruiting campaigns and look "cool" to teenage boys.

<b>Ghikas:</b><blockquote>"How does that happen?</blockquote>A reasonably reliable source told me that the decision was made by an unnamed General Officer sitting in the decision brief asking "Which one is the digital camo?" Then stating "That's the one we want..." Sounds plausible. Aside from the invented at Natick (can't have an expensive operation not producing results that aren't employed) factor, I suspect the license fee to Multicam was a consideration.

You are correct. The wrong pattern can be consequential -- I should have said arguing about who owns what camouflage on the basis of 'identity' as opposed to 'effectiveness' and what's best for the US, not a specific service is inconsequential -- or sorta juvenile...

Multicam is better then the ACU pattern, no question (or Marpat IMO) -- nor was their ever a question on that score. Howsomeever, plain old OG 107 still does just as well in more conditions at half the price. ;)

Well, the camouflage issue isn't --entirely-- inconsequential. Since 2005 all of us in the Army have been running around the battlefield in what amounts to glow-in-the-dark pajamas.

Ironically, Multicam was tested by the Army--for a couple years, and the tests showed that by far, Multicam was the best pattern. Then suddenly we put on ACUs. How does that happen? No one ever sufficiently explained that one. Mind you, after the uniforms came all the gear, so literally billions (with a "B") have been spent on the Army's current pattern. And after all the changes and expenditure, Congress had to order the Army to put a new camo into theater. When did the military ever have to be told that we're not dressed properly for work? Embarrassing!

Now we've spent additional moneys putting Multicam into Afghanistan. It works. Not just there but in multiple environments (not all, but very, very many). We ought to just cut losses right now and just issue Multicam to the rest of the force. Save the time and money we'll waste on trials, experiments, surveys, testing, contract bidding, etc. The uniforms are already made. The gear has already been made. It just needs to be put on the shelf. It can only be better than the current pattern--and it's what the Army was going to do originally!

That would a) solve this serious issue of ineffective/dangerous camouflage, and b) make this entire Army/USMC camo spat entirely moot, so we can go on about our business.

The Camouflage issue is transitory and breathtakingly inconsequential.

Sergeants Major and what they do, OTOH, are or certainly should be important issues. The efforts of each of them on a daily basis is a reflection upon the individual however those actions are in the final analysis quite dependent upon the whims, goals and desires of their Commanders.

<b>Bluelight</b> did it right. His final two paragraphs above cite the ideal...

I know SgtMaj Kent. He is a good man and a good SgtMaj. Did he blow this one? Maybe, but in looking at the body of the man's work, I think its pretty positive. Having had Sgts Maj work for me at a couple different levels in the Marine Corps, I would tell you that your SgtMaj will be whatever you want him to be. If you want him to act as an "uber Duty NCO" he will do that, and that will be unfortunate for your unit, but thats not the role I ever directed my SgtMaj to fill.
The largest part of my SgtMaj's portfolio was devoted to the development of NCOs and SNCOs. He was responsible for training, education, and mentoring of subordinate enlisted leaders. If Marines needed haircuts, shaves, or if the battalion police call wasn't done, he called the 1st Sergeants in and via that chain of influence corrections were made. But that chain of influence was also utilized for a variety of other more important issues related to leadership, warfighting, etc, that built the capability and capacity of junior leaders to assume the role of more senior leaders.
The other thing I always used my SgtMaj for was enlisted perspective. I wasn't prior enlisted, I didn't live in the barracks, never had to survive with two kids and a wife on LCpl's pay. My SgtMajs were always great about sharing that side of the Marine Corps with me and I think it helped me make better decisions.
So yeah, there are martinets out there who are caricatures of what a SgtMaj should be, but I would tell you that it's the Colonel's unit and the CO drives the SgtMaj's tasking and actions. Probably the most important thing senior leaders both officer and enlisted can do is develop the next generation of leaders. I always tried to focus my SgtMaj in this area.

SSDD.

I've associated with the US military for almost 50 years, entering as a buck private, ascending to NCO status, and then, remarkably, achieving officer status. This, even though most of my peers felt sergeant squad leader was my Peter Principle limit.

The one constant through all of these years of active duty as a Snuffy, as an NCO, as an officer, as a professional civilian and as a retiree who consulted sometimes was: NCO chickenshit games. Not to say officers didn't do it, too, but it always seemed too many members of the NCO Corps had refined it to a science.

Can't tell you how many guys might have stayed, even after Vietnam, had they not been unfortunate enough to end up at Bragg, Hood, Riley (or any other garden spot) and then having to mow lawns and paint rocks for Sergeant Rock and his boss, Captain America.

I don't know whether to be happy or sad that it seems nothing has changed. Somehow, however, I sort of came to believe that the US military culture in the 21st Century might advance right along with the great leaps in weaponry and other technological marvels.

This is all the stuff of novels written by some great authors and some not so great authors. Damn, the military is endlessly amusing if you're not the guy who actually has to put up with the idiosyncracies of various strange guys with lots of stripes or stars.

An Army Laboratory actually developed the pattern for the Marines' uniform.

The Marines screaming over the Army using "their" camoflage pattern stinks of hypocrisy!

Marines claim credit for what are Army accomplishments, e.g. being first to fight, fighting in the Battle ofTrenton, anchoring Andrew HJackson's line at the Battle of New Orleans, capturing the Castle of Chapultepec

The Army developed much of the weaponry the Marines use or have used, e.g. the M1 Garand, the Abrams Tank, the Javelin anti air missle, Artillery pieces.

Finally, many soldiers fought and died in the cause of compiling the Marines' combat record in WWII. The role of the Army in the Central Pacific was more extensive and more significant than the Marines' role at either the Halls of Montezuma or the Shores of Tripoli.

Lets be more specific JAQUEBAUER, that "someone" needs to be in the Sergeant Major's direct chain of command. I don't think CTU qualifies.

As far as I can tell, The American people own the MARPAT design, paid for and bought by the taxpayers. Somebody needs to tell the Sergeant Major that.

So it's not ok for the Army to use MarPat, but it's ok for a bunch of other countries like Georgia and at one time the ANA to use it? Wtf..

While I'm willing to grant the Marines the benefit of the doubt that they pursued a new uniform for legitimate reasons, the patenting of it and making it distinct to me set the trend for each of the services developing separate uniforms that would be distinct. There certainly can't be any argument that the Air Force and Navy uniforms serve no purpose other than being different from those the Army and Marines wear. We've all got separate dress uniforms to distinguish our individual services. On the battlefield everyone should wear whatever is most effective, regardless of which service develops it.

Since I haven't met any of you, Your record may still be good but in this 10 yrs as one of those things called a SMAJ, no one ever caught me worrying about uniforms. Unigrams and haircuts are a Squad Leaders job -- as is Police Call -- and good Sergeants Major just make sure those 1SGs and PSGS force Squad Leaders to do their job -- that's what they get the big bucks for. Not for doing others jobs for them.

As for assigning persons to that job outside the unit function and MOS preponderance, that explains why they can't do much nowadays except worry about non essentials, so they're geting blamed for a <i>systemic</i> problem...

The Sergeant Major should be the principal enlisted <u>trainer</u> because he should know more and be more experienced than everyone else.
If that's not the the case, then we have yet another example of how the Per weenies have destroyed the services in the name of 'management.'

You'd think good commanders would want that remedied...

As for MarPat, Multicam and all -- while I am rather disinterested, seems to me that that it might be better to just go back to OG 107, it blends more places than any of the patterns and its a couple of orders of magnitude cheaper. The IR suppressive stuff is a waste of time and money because we don't conceal sweaty feet or faces.

<i>Every SgtMaj i've ever met worried about uniforms.</i>

Yep, to an obsession, and often to the detriment of important issues. No argument here.

.

How did this discussion about uniforms turn into a referendum on three Commandants? Bitter much?

Jones was brought up because he instituted the MARPAT uniforms and others (JCustis) questioned whether having a unique uniform was motivation for Jones. (it was).

Here's my observation on what SgtMajs do particularly at the Bn/Sqdn level: they police appearance and military functionality of the unit. The SgtMaj critiques and corrects haircuts, shaves, and uniform appearance. A Marine is seen wearing a nasty uniform in the chow hall? SgtMaj will take care of it. By the way you write anymouse, I more than strongly suspect that you were on the receiving end of some of those SgtMaj "critiques". In short the SgtMaj polices the "professionalism" of the unit. Now I can hear you kicking and screaming and crying as I write this about how "HAIRCUTS AREN'T PROFESSIONALISM!" whah what etc. Of course you'd be right in my opinion. But you see the mighty Marine Corps disagrees with you. Have you ever stopped to think about why the Marine Corps deliberately places SgtMajs outside their MOS especially at the BN/Sqdn level? It's not uncommon to see a SgtMaj in a grunt BN who spent 20 years as a wrench turner or admin dude. He will likely have absolutely nothing to add in staff meetings when it comes to things like "tactics" "logistics" "weapons" "plans" or anything remotely relevant to fighting a war with one possible exception, "disclipline". He likely cant even tell a squad leader how to do his job. Except for a few notable exceptions, SgtMajs don't lead charges up hills or clear houses.

Why in the world does the Marine Corps do that? And yet we have some people who are shocked-SHOCKED-that Kent had the balls to talk about uniforms, the very topic he has likely spent the most time worrying about in the last 10 years? That he's out of his "lane". If he isn't in his lane, tell me just what should that lane be?

Hey, maybe we should change our senior SNCO system into one that will focus more on "warfighting" issues instead of uniform issues. I'd probably be in favor of that. But that would probably cut in to traditional "officer" roles. So we keep the poor SgtMajs back in their corners where they can obsess over such things as haircuts and uniforms.

But I'm sure as hell not shocked-nor even mildly surprised-that the SMMC spoke out on uniforms. Every SgtMaj i've ever met worried about uniforms.

Conway, Hagee, & Jones don't count, they are history, as in former Commandants, in fact why not post here just what those 3 CMC's actually did - REALLY DID - for the Corps during their tenures? Not much to say the least, especially during a time when the Corps was/is supporting sustained land war (ala Vietnam). Where did any of them rationally explain (and it isnt rocket science) the USMC vision for the future... A real vision, not buzz word "Americas 9/11" "From the Sea" BS. Dont get me wrong, the Corps is well positioned to be a major, if not THE major player after the post-Iraq-Afghanistan reset, they just need to articulate it better.

You can agree or disagree w/what I wrote, that wasn't the point of writing it, the point was to elaborate on the SMMC's stance.

His point is not "we should be the ones w/the best camouflage" or "that we put the time & money in to develop it so you can't have it".

His point is it was designed to be well camouflaged, functional, etc, but uniquely Marine uniform.

This is not my opinion, for the Idiot calling me a Chest Thumper. I'm relaying what was the well documented stance of the USMC at the time the Uniform was presented.

Why uniquely Marine & not just new uniform? If you read the articles at that time ('01,'02,'03) they explained why. They said that it does what the enemy already does after they engage w/US Marine; try to find identifying markers to separate them fr/other units, having a Marine only camo just makes it faster.

It caused more stir then then it is now. Will the other services get it? If not will Navy personnel assigned to USMC get it??

So To Charles, who asked me if I understood that it was the TTPs that the Taliban fear not the actual MarPat... Yes Charles, its in what I wrote.

To JCustis: Your explanation explains everything but why they Patented it. Fortunately there are plenty of articles fr/the time where they explain why they Patented the design.

Like I said earlier, this is not my personal opinion this was written in response to the statement the SMMC is "dead wrong", to explain the stance he took.

He's defending a stance the USMC took on this issue 9yrs ago. As SMMC or as any Sr Enlisted Adviser one of his roles is to express positions his officer may feel but not be as free to speak as Enlisted, to be a Shield Bearer & take the heat, & thats exactly what he's doing.

AMOS may feel differently, we'll soon find out, but Conway, Hagee, & Jones didn't.

Well, as a saved round from my last comment, there is also something to be said about the "sameness" or differences once all the battle rattle and in some instances NBC gear is put on over the MARPAT/BDU.

Eric-

"Fr/the Devils in Black Boots in Somalia (b/c Marines wore Dsrt Camo w/Jungle Bts), to the White Sleeves of mid '90s Haiti; enemy quickly learn to point out Marine units by differences in uniform"

Could it be that the enemy figured out who was who because the Marine uniform says "U.S. MARINES" on the chest and the Army uniform says "U.S. ARMY?"

A thought....

I guess I could scroll up to find the couple of posts that address what our senior SNCOs consider important but I won't. From personal experience the type of stuff Kent espouses is rampant amongst the senior Marine Corps SNCO ranks. We can all argue that each incident like this is isolated.

I unfortunately found myself on a USMC SgtMaj e-mail list several years ago, apparently by accident. In the midst of two wars and a wider GWOT, these senior enlisted leaders wasted hours/days/weeks and bandwidth discussing whether the gate-guards at the main gate should be allowed to wear a cold-weather watch-cap (it gets very cold in Virginia, in the dead of winter, at zero-dark early). Most were against, and then when they lost that argument, began another one. Is it allowable to salute officers cars while wearing a watch-cap and the SgtMaj energizer bunnies kept on (meanwhile across the globe).

But I guess I should not belabor the point. My bottom line is that there are more Kents amongst our NCO ranks than John Basilones right now in the Corps. We are over 40 years too late in ridding our Corps of those who are waste products. Yes, there are good ones, but until the Corps takes enlisted development as serious as officer's the Service is screwed. Start with real NCO and SNCO education - anyone can learn to drill with a sword, not everyone can be a strategic corporal.

Not only is this a silly argument on the first place, the greater irony is that MARPAT isn't even the best camo pattern; Crye Precision MULTICAM, for one example, is gar superior in most environments. But regardless, this is just the sort of thing admin pukes and rear echelon Rambo types love to waste their time on kefir heading put for a few round of golf, and then drinks at the clubhouse, while troops in the field are bleeding.

My memory differs from others. I specifically remember Gen. Jones saying that one of the reasons he sought a new uniform was to make Marines seperatly identifiable on the battlefield.

Perhaps the Army's inability to develop a unique effective uniform overrides the Marines' need to be seperatly identifiable.

So the cash-strapped US military is busily doing everything possible to waste each additional tax payer's dollar it can get it's hands on.

Eric's argument seems to be that uniforms should be designed to enable the enemy to identify the USMC, so as to enable their use of tactics which are better able to cause marine casualties. Seems like a bright idea.

If the Corps is so much better than the army, the effect of engaging in combat with the marines will speak for itself - if not, sew a badge on.

If there's one one aspect of the military mind that's never ceased to amaze me, it's that grown men will cattily deride each other's outfits and footwear as if they were characters in a Candace Bushnell novel.

I guess the SMMC didn't get the word from the SECDEF saying we need to find ways to save money.

Everyone across the DOD use use the same utility uniforms if they work and are durable, as was pointed out above you save by economy of scale.

As for the enemy knowing who Marines are vs. Army. They knew which Army units were which and avoided some over others. If you are effective they will figure it out...don't worry you fighting legacy will be safe and nobody will confuse you with the Army.

And while we are saving money on uniforms why is the Army continuing to buy a flight uniform that costs two to three times as much and wears half as long as the standard CWU-27P flight suit utilized by the other services? If somebody (SECDEF?) would step in and standardize across branches literally millions could be saved. I know that's a drop in the bucket, but that is a reoccurring savings over time that adds up to real money.

Is this the sort of thing that ordinarily consumes the time of the senior enlisted member of the USMC? One wonders if the American people share the sergeant major's views. They are the ones paying for all of the uniform-related nonsense in all of the services, after all.

Just when you think you've seen just about everything when it comes to military foolishness, along comes yet another reminder of what happens when people have too much time on their hands.

Bad PR, indeed. Sorry, Marines, your guy blew it.

Great point by Mr. Munson - regarding the silliness and how is it that our leaders have the time to spend on this garbage.

Perhaps the SMMC should direct his attention to more pressing issues, and there are more pressing issues - there's a war going on!

I take issue with what Eric said. Sorry brother but that is a terribly misinformed comment. If you think for one instant that MARPAT is guiding the Taliban, you're crazy. The "enemy" has been watching our bumper numbers, vehicle types, weapon types, TTPs, and many other things for a long time now. Furthermore, if it was MARPAT that was such a strong signal, I promise you every service member in theater would be wearing MARPAT. Our senior leaders are so scared to take a casualty, those MARPAT unis would have been out in a week.

Also, how do you suppose a fighting force such as the Taliban with poor nutrition and poor eyesight are spotting the uniform differences? They are cued in to other indicators.

If you think MARPAT was invented so Marines would look different then heaven help you. It was designed for effectiveness, not so you could thump your chest about looking different while you conduct your "trademark" tactics.

How in the hell is the SMMC fighting for his Marines by telling other services to stay away from the MARPAT? Do you have any logical argument constructed to show how an Army Soldier wearing MARPAT would jeopardize anything for Marines?

Perhaps someone should show the SMMC that his oath is to support and defend the same constitution the rest of us support and defend and the flag flying at his HQ is the same at all the other branches. Absolutely moronic and stupefying stance.

USMC....good organization, but it's time to stop being idiots on this issue. Or we can all just play fuck-fuck games and the Navy can tell the Marines to ride on their own ships (oops, they don't have any), The USAF can tell them to fly into theater on their own planes (oops, don't have air transport either), and the Army can "patent" and pull back the equipment it developed that was later adopted by the USMC.

Seriously....there's a time for branch pride, and then there's a time to shut up.

If the Marines need a patent for their uniforms what if the Army patented the M1 tank the Huey and the Cobra, the M16 and M4 the 155mm howitzer and all the other equipment the Army and other services and even other countries (e.g., the Brits and the Harrier) have developed and provided to the Marines. If Marines have developed the best camo pattern that works then they should be willing to share it. Or they can keep their camo pattern and let all the services keep their equipment that the Marines are dependent on. Let them cut off their nose to spite their face.

I agree w/your sentiment, but I can't agree that the SMMC stance is dead wrong. He has a leg to stand on, & his point is this.

While its true the USMC & USA have worn the same Cammies/BDUs for decades, being a Marine I'm sure you know, that in countless engagements the enemy quickly delineates the 2 units.

Fr/the Devils in Black Boots in Somalia (b/c Marines wore Dsrt Camo w/Jungle Bts), to the White Sleeves of mid '90s Haiti; enemy quickly learn to point out Marine units by differences in uniform showing a little of both fear & respect by avoiding or changing tactics when engaging USMC units.

Case in point was when the USMC took over for the Brit RM in Sangin. The RM's leading cause of death in tht AO was always Small Arms Fire. When 3/7 began to take over the local taliban tried to engage them in complex S.A.F. Due to USMC trademarks of aggressive tactics & excellent small unit leadership, the 1st wk accounted for over 100 E-KIA followed by a 2wk OP that resulted in over 150 killed or captured.

40 Cdo was still operating during the RIP, the local T's quickly changed to avoid direct fire w/the US Marines (easily distinguished wearing MarPat) while still engaging in DF w/the RM. By the time of 3/5's deployment (a month later) the local Taliban had almost completely abandoned the complex assaults used against the RM & opted for the safer IED+Sniper route.

While your intention is justified, its not a silly pride issue. While I'm sure the SMMC cares about all US Service Members his 1st responsibility is to fight for his Marines.

US enemies over the yrs have always taken the time to Identify US Marines, which is why MarPat was Patented. If being able to clearly delineate Marines facilitates that; then his job to fight for his Marines & uphold that Patent.

Agreed Dave. It is time for that post and relief...